The Optometry Money Podcast Episode 132: Creating a Clear Pathway From Associate OD to Partnership with Erich Mattei

Evon: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Optometry Money Podcast, where we’re helping ODs all over the country make better and better decisions around their money, their careers, and their practices. I am your host, Evon Mendrin, Certified Financial Planner, practitioner, and owner of Optometry Wealth Advisors, an independent financial planning firm just for optometrist nationwide. And thank you so much for listening. Really appreciate your time. And on today’s episode, I welcome back to the podcast Mr. Erich Mattei. And we are really continuing a past conversation we had in a recent episode. We talked about the motivations and best practices for bringing on and associates to the practice.

And on today’s episode, we hone in specifically on how practice owners can create a pathway from associate to partnership. And so in the first half of the conversation we talk [00:01:00] about the motivations and timing.

Around why you would bring on a partner, a co-owner, to the practice. And then in the second half of the conversation we talk about the actual structure of that buy-in and the percentages involved. We talk about how to structure compensation between different co-owners, and we talk about legal documents to review. And then lastly, Eric and I talk about our final thoughts.

And so hopefully this is helpful to you if you’re the owner thinking about whether and when it makes sense to add on an associate doctor as a part of your own succession plan, contingency planning, or whether you’re an associate doctor, thinking about whether you were wanting to know what to look for in that opportunity. Hopefully this is helpful for you.

I put all of the links in resources we talked about in the show notes, uh, which you can find at the Education Hub at my website, www www.optometrywealth.Com.

And if you have any questions, you can reach out to me here at podcast@optometrywealth.Com.

And if you wanna learn [00:02:00] more about this topic and all things related to practice and personal finances related to practice owners.

What you wanna do is head over to the links in the show notes and sign up for my Eyes on the Money Weekly newsletter. Each week I bring tips or education around how you can make better financial decisions. And if you do, I’m gonna send you a resource that shows you the most important financial planning numbers you need to know for 2025.

And without further ado, here is my conversation with Erich Mattei.

Start of the Interview with Erich Mattei

Evon: And welcome back to the Optometry Money Podcast.

I am your host, Evon Mendrin, and I am excited to welcome back to the podcast once again, Mr. Erich Mattei. Erich, thank you so much for coming back on

Erich: Evon. It’s so great to see you. Thanks for having me back.

Evon: Erich, in a recent episode, you and I talked about the, the motivations and best practices for hiring an associate and. this is episode 124, so we’ll throw a link to that in the show notes for the listener. But, we talked about those [00:03:00] motivations and best practices, and one of those motivations were practice succession is passing on ownership of that practice to other associate doctors based on the desires of the current owner.

And so it’s that motivation, it’s that process that I really wanna dive into with you today is, is how do we create this pathway from hired associate doctor to practice, partner to practice co-owner. What, what does that actually look like? And so as we, as we dive into this, I, I wanna start with the basics.

Motivations for Adding a Co-Owner to an Optometry Practice

Evon: What are the motivations of a current owner wanting to bring on another co-owning optometrist? Why would an optometrist want to give up ownership of their practice? What are some of the motivations.

Erich: You know, that’s a really, really great question to kick things off Evon and, and really what this all ties back to, I. Is a a couple of core, core things. Number one, what’s the future of that business gonna look like from an exit standpoint? Right. [00:04:00] So typically when we see partnerships, there’s typically going to be a senior partner and a junior partner, right?

Evon: Mm-hmm.

Erich: and realizing that that senior partner may I and their exit, whereas a junior partner’s gonna continue to grow and flourish into their new role. They themselves as the senior. So one motive is to be proactive in planning that exit plan, right? Motive number two has to do with something that we touched on a little bit in the last episode, and that’s the degree to which Optometry.

It has a potential to scale. Now it’s, it’s difficult to wrap our heads around scaling an Optometry practice, seen as it’s an owner operator type business where, you know, we need doctors to be serving patients and such. But nonetheless, when you look at bringing multiple doctors under one roof that have complimentary skillset, that can position a practice to really hit a next level of growth that otherwise perhaps couldn’t be done if you had a single doctor [00:05:00] practicing kind of their single modality or, or bundle of modalities.

So those hands down are gonna be the top two reasons why doctors want to get into partnership. But also outside of that is, you know, other things such as like, you know, hey, simply the fact that I want to be in a business and run my own business, but it would be nice to have someone else kind of along for the ride.

Right. That, that teamwork, that comradery kind of that balance of duties. Right. And particularly when we look at folks maybe that have some strengths in one area. and then someone else, the other partner may have some strengths in another area. So, in a nutshell, you know, what really is driving this interesting partnership?

Again, it’s one of those three, you know, it’s going to be where you’ve got one plan, where you’ve got one party, the senior member who’s actively gonna be looking to approach their, their exit from the business on down the line. Number two has to do with purely growing and scaling, maximizing the potential and profitability of the business.

And then number [00:06:00] three is simply to have a partner in the business. ’cause you want to have that team, you want to have that, that collaboration that can afford many things, not only in the practice as far as operations and performance in the business, but also having that flexibility to perhaps take that vacation and do some of these other things that I know we touched on in our last episode were also some of the motives why doctors want to be in private practice in the first place.

Evon: Gotcha. And that that first motivation, that exit planning is really important as you think about the role of the practice value on the owner’s balance sheet. And that is a, that is a, can be a significant part of their net worth. As they’re planning for other life goals, other financial goals, like just financial independence, being able to, to capture the value of all of that hard work, to be able to exit the practice on their terms and then to enjoy retirement, to enjoy the next stage of their career, whatever that is.

how do we preserve that value? Well, part of that is making sure that there’s a continuity of care. Patients are continuing to be served in the same manner. Staff’s gonna stick around and there’s [00:07:00] an owner willing to buy it. We, we don’t have to go search around, we don’t have to have a fire sale. You know, there’s gonna be continuity of ownership and continuity of care.

When Should an Optometry Practice Owner Start Thinking About Adding a Partner?

Evon: And, and when does an owner know that it’s time to start thinking about this? at what stage of their career? At what age? What about timing?

Erich: Yeah, and Evon. I think that’s where right now we’re seeing a big mindset shift that if you ask me, I believe is long overdue. That mindset shift being to go from, I wanna be retired in the next year, so now I need to figure all this stuff out. That’s the old, kinda the older way of thinking. The mindset shift now is I need to start earlier in my career.

I need to be

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: in this. So we can kind of think, if we go back a few short years, right? The way that private equity is able to come and penetrate eyecare, not just eyecare, but all industries, right? The way private equity has been able to penetrate Optometry, though, specifically is [00:08:00] that we had a large population of older doctors who were single owners, as we touched on prior to hit and record today, were kind of keeping all this secret to themselves.

You

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: they may have been thinking here and there about their exit, what’s next? But for all intents and purposes, Evon, it was a secret. And it wasn’t until they got that letter from the private equity or from the, the hospital system that wants to buy their business, that all of a sudden they’re like, wow, I, I, I, I can do this.

So I, so that has, again, kind spurred this mindset shift that if you ask me, is long overdue where doctors can be empowered to be proactive in this journey earlier in the process. And there’s a lot of other indications out there that shows that this, this is certainly going to be now, I believe the way that many practices are gonna start to evolve over time. we’ll unpack some of that probably in this conversation as well.

Evon: Yeah. Interesting. You’re, you’re starting to see that it, it’s not just a, I need to [00:09:00] retire next year conversation. This is more of a, how do I bring those, those co-owners in earlier in that journey and have more of a gradual, gradual succession rather than sort of all at once? And, and that’s interesting.

I, I just think about the conversations I have, particularly with mid-career, earlier career owners, and there’s, there is a wide range of opinions on, I have no interest in bringing on a co-owner, versus I, I’m more than willing to bring on an associate co-owner because I’m, I’m looking at the growth opportunities of bringing on that owner and the, the partnership, as you talked about the, the complimentary skill sets that another owner can bring into it.

So I’ve even seen sort of differences in opinion far beyond exit and just how those, those doctors feel about that.

What Does an Owner Optometrist Look For in A Future Partner?

Evon: And we talked about those different motivations to hiring one of these motivations to be practice succession. how [00:10:00] does that impact what the owner looks for in that associate?

It knowing that that associate’s gonna be co-owner, not, not just a great clinician, but also co-owner in the practice.

Erich: Yeah, that, that’s a really, really great question there. Evon, as a matter of fact, it gets me to thinking of a, a practice that we work very, very closely with a Picayune Eye Clinic up in Picayune, Mississippi. As a matter of fact, it’s women in Optometry just recently profiled, Dr. Lori Blackmer, Dr. Massengale

Evon: Oh.

Erich: who recently joined the practice.

And actually, it’s a fascinating article. It unpacks some of that, right? what this journey will look like and, you know, some of Dr. Blackmer’s motivations in bringing in this young associate, and particularly bringing her in with this explicit path to partnership. And then conversely, from Dr. Hannah Massengale side, coming in as a, as a young associate on this path to partnership. it all plays into really, I believe you, you [00:11:00] touched on the continuity care piece, and, and that tends to be a really big motivator. I. Continuity of care, knowing that there’s going to be that next generation of, of doctor to take care of patients moving forward, but also in advancing care. And that’s another really exciting thing that we’re seeing here with a lot of these partnerships and transitions where we’re seeing, we’re seeing modern full scope Optometry really come and make its mark in the practice.

And, you know, that’s where we see some really fascinating things unfolding such as, you know, you can consider a practice perhaps that was a really great thriving practice that was doing more primary care, comprehensive care, primary Optometry the, the, the duration of the practice to date. Well now you have. A young associate that’s perhaps a bit more, a bit more, advanced clinically and in their medical billing and can start bringing the practice from a more of a, an old school [00:12:00] optometric model to more of a new school full scope model. So, you

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: being a huge mode in and of itself, right there, Evon, and you wanna talk about dollars in practices.

I can’t tell you how many practices out there have been hovering in that, you know, six, seven, $800,000 gross revenue with a single doctor practicing old school Optometry. And you start digging into the data and you come to see, wow, there’s this huge opportunity just in simply adding some medical services and billing appropriately for medical services. I mean, that’s just the tip of the iceberg. We don’t even have to get into talking about dry eye and aesthetics and myopia management and some of these. Some of these fascinating specialties just simply in incorporating some medical into a vision practice can be huge, but truly across the board, no matter what way you look at this, we know that the public health need for vision, medical, and specialty eye care continues to advance. And this up and coming generation of [00:13:00] modern optometrists, of whom now have gone through school with full medical training, increasingly now they’re even coming outta Optometry school with training in lasers and, and in minor surgical procedures such as the case of that practice that I was referencing a moment ago, you know, Picayune Eye Clinic, Dr.

Lori Blackmer and Dr. Hannah Massengale. It’s just really fascinating to see all these things come together.

Evon: So one of those, one of those things then talking about complimentary skillsets is, is, a, a clinical skillset or a clinical experience that adds maybe a new line of services or new scope of care for patients to, to expand, expand that revenue opportunity and care opportunity for, for the community. So that sounds like that’s something to look into.

how about a, an interest or motivation to own, I’m assuming that’s something you’d want to see in that eventual associate. How do you start to notice that? How do you ask about that if you’re looking to hire that associate? What, what are some things you’d want to hear to see if there is a [00:14:00] true, you know, opportunity or, or interest in motivation to own?

Erich: Yeah. Do you know how you ask about it? Evon.

Evon: Do you simply ask?

Erich: Let’s role play Evon. Let’s

Evon: Okay.

Erich: Dr. Evon Mendrin, you

Evon: Yes.

Erich: and I’m Dr. Erich Mattei I’m a

Evon: yeah.

Erich: aspiring optometrist.

Evon: Okay. Alright.

Erich: Ask me.

Evon: Hey Erich, are you interested in ownership here?

Erich: Yes. Evon, I, I, I think I am.

Evon: Did we, did we just solve it? Okay.

Erich: I think what Evon, I think we just solved, I think we just solved what I believe is, is going to unlock the next universe for eye care, specifically Optometry. And it’s just that, it’s just that I think it’s high time, it’s 2025. It’s high time that doctors feel comfortable and empowered to speak their mind, to ask a question.

There’s no need to beat around the bush. There’s no need

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: keep things a secret, only to have it wake you up in the middle of [00:15:00] the night thinking about this and that, just come out and say it. Right.

Evon: And I don’t, I,

Erich: And, and that was, you’ll recall, I, I even invited you before hitting record when you said, Hey Erich, what’s one of the messages you really wanna drive home? The biggest message I wanna drive home to doctors. Whether you’re the established practice owner, looking for a partner or exit, or whether you’re the emerging owner looking for an opportunity. One thing to take away from this episode, be proactive, y’all.

Evon: mm.

Erich: That’s it. Be proactive.

Evon: And I, I can feel like there is this sort of, temptation to keep your cards close, you know, to, to not really, not really show your two, your true intentions for whatever the motivation is. Maybe you don’t want staff to know you’re thinking about exiting. Maybe you don’t want to think about exiting yourself, or maybe you, you don’t wanna tip your, your, you don’t wanna show your cards to the associate.

I, I don’t know what the motivation could be, but I, I can sense that there could be that sort of temptation and as you are kind of talking about right now, I’m not sure that helps anybody. I, if you are wanting to bring in an [00:16:00] associate doctor that will own, it’s in your best interest to market that so that you can find the best pool of candidates that want to own, and that you are certain that that associate doctor is going to be a good fit to co-own with you from the very beginning, right?

Not, not, not years into it, but from the very beginning and from the associate doctor, if they are motivated to own and are probably going to be a good fit for ownership, they’re probably looking for that opportunity. And so from both sides, I think it’s, it, it is to the best interest of both to be open with that motivation, if that’s something that you wanna do.

and you do have to, as you’ve talked about in the past, you do have to market your business. You, you do have to present it as something that another doctor would want to be a part of and sell and that people know about. And so, we don’t need to keep our, our cards too close to the chest on this one.

The Eventual Pivot When Current Associate ODs Don’t Want To Own

Evon: And a, a follow up question, and I’m gonna ask a, a couple questions out of this, but we [00:17:00] talk about those, those doctors maybe earlier in their career. They own a practice. They aren’t interested in sharing ownership just yet. but they do want to expand their ability to serve patients. And so they, they want to hire associate doctors while, while still working quite a bit in the practice.

And so they hire excellent clinicians, excellent optometrists, great with patients, but those optometrists have no interest in owning and they maybe wouldn’t even be good fits for, for co-ownership for whatever reason. And so you, you kind of go through, if you project out the future career of that owner, there might be a pivot they have to, they have to go through because their current associates aren’t a great fit.

Even if they’re great clinicians, they aren’t a great fit to buy the practice. They may be forced to sell to another third party optometrist. At the risk of the current optometrists leaving, if there’s not a great, a great, chemistry [00:18:00] there. in, in terms of contingency planning, if something happens to the current owners, they can’t be certain the current doctors will purchase from the, the spouse or from the estate.

So how do you think about that sort of scenario and this sort of pivot that that doctor has to go through? And you don’t have to have a great answer here, but I’m just kind of thinking out loud. How do we think about that sort of scenario there?

Erich: Yeah, that, that’s a, that’s a really powerful question, Evon, and I think one of the things that it, it speaks to most notably, is what it means to own a practice. These days versus kind of old, old school. What did it mean to own a practice?

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: Evon, you know, and you and I have had a lot of conversations around this, right?

Like running a business in it’s 2025, March of 2025 is, we’re recording this, right? But running a business [00:19:00] now, and I’ll say post covid, world post pandemic, right? Versus kind of pre pandemic. And the fact is there are more tools and resources and ways to systematize and streamline a business these days.

Evon: Mm-hmm.

Erich: there are more ways to engage and promote and foster a strong collaborative culture in the office these days than ever before

Evon: Okay.

Erich: I bring this up to say that. What, what, what, when, when someone does not want to be in ownership, the reason why they do not want to be in ownership typically is not because they don’t wanna work for themselves and have their own practice where they can provide the scope of care that they wanna provide to their patients and their community.

Everyone wants to do that. The reason why doctors would not want to be in practice, ownership is running the business.

Evon: Right.

Erich: where, that’s where I point to, you know, the work that we do within Akrinos running, I mean, our mission make the business of private practice approachable, accessible and profitable. [00:20:00] The way you did it back in 1995, it ain’t gonna cut it in the year 2025 very, for that matter. Very few things done the way we did 30 years ago are gonna cut it. I mean, sure you’ll get by, you’ll get by, but when we really, when we really look, you know, take that 30,000 foot view. I know you’re involved in some of the online communities.

I don’t do so much in the online communities these days. Right. Although you can’t find me on LinkedIn where business happens, right. But as far as you go into the online communities and you can kind of, you can kind of see how the, how the deck is cut, You can only continue doing things the same way that we’ve always done them until, quite frankly, that way just absolutely fails us. that’s where I think getting back to the whole, being proactive, that’s where. this whole industry consultants, of software companies, of equipment companies that have amazing [00:21:00] new modern ways of doing things can eliminate so many headaches and drive so much profitability for the business.

It’s, it’s shocking. And you can see it again in the online communities. You can see those people that are chiming in that figured it out. They aligned with the right consultants, with the right equipment companies, with the right software companies. They were proactive and ju digging into their business as opposed to those that are kind of more, Hey, I’m gonna keep doing this the old way. it’s where we kind of feel comfortable. It’s the way it’s always been done. I mean, a really good example is paper charts, you know? And, and there are members of our audience out there where there’s a lot of folks that think like, wow, at one time there was a paper chart. Yes, yes. At one time, there was a time before EHRs.

Okay. But I use that as an example because although the adaptation from paper to electronic. There were some headaches, there were some learning curves in it. 99% you asked, 99% of them are gonna [00:22:00] say, would you ever go back to paper? Heavens no. Because there are now so many workflows that are, that are hinged on that EHR, and these are workflows that in the paper days, wanna talk about staff being irritated with having to do mundane, busy work. Holy cow.

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: let’s go back in our time machine and see the mundane busy work that people were doing

Evon: Right,

Erich: ago.

Evon: right.

Erich: so where I’m going with this is the reason why folks would not want to be in ownership of the business is not that they don’t want to autonomy in their patient care and autonomy in their decisions. Everybody wants that. The hesitation is in running the business. Because what comes to mind is the way that the businesses were run by the past generation, and I’m here to say that if you embrace modern approaches to business, a lot of these headaches and [00:23:00] hangups that you saw the old generation dealing with, you’re not gonna have to deal with.

Evon: So where, where my, where my brain might go to, okay, there might be ODs out there that simply don’t want to ever think about the business. They wanna show up to the clinic, work with patients, go home and not think about it after that where you’re saying, well, no, if you improve the processes and technology of the business, you can remove.

Maybe not entirely, but you can at least limit the burden that the optometrist would face, getting into ownership and, and make that ownership opportunity more enjoyable. Is that, is that what you’re saying?

Erich: Exactly.

Evon: Okay.

Erich: more accessible, and more profitable.

Evon: Okay. Interesting. I’d be fascinated to hear from the listeners what your, your thoughts are on that and maybe what you’ve done to see those improvements in your own business, or maybe if you were an OD that stepped in that position, what you, what you saw as well.

But, one follow up question then, out of this sort of same scenario in that it [00:24:00] seems that there are ways to do this either simply by being the sole owner of the practice and hiring great clinicians and stepping away from full-time patient care and managing the business and. and then at time of exit, when you’re sort of thinking about that time of exit later on in life, that’s when you sort of go through that, that’s sort of the, maybe the older way or, or one of the common ways you see that done.

And then there’s the more of the earlier, earlier journey,co-owner pathway where there are co-owners earlier in that there’s more of a built-in succession plan earlier. What questions would you ask of a current owner to sort of lead them and help them decide what makes the most sense for that practice in that situation?

Erich: Yeah. that’s a really, really big question.

Evon: Yes.

Erich: But, but, but the number one, number [00:25:00] one is timeline. Number one is the timeline, because the timeline determines well Evon just about everything, right? And, and we can think, I mean, obviously look at the work that you all do, Optometry Wealth Advisors, I mean, it’s all about that time horizon.

You know, how how far are we from, from that? And, you know, consider the planning and the approaches that. That you all take with clients. Say they’re early, maybe, you know, early in their career expecting their first child you know, I’m 15 years in and I’ve got a couple of school aged children, maybe early teens, and then, oh wow, you know, I’m 25, 30 years in and I got kids in college or out of the house.

You know, it’s all about the time horizon, number one. And then from there, all of these different fascinating combinations that these, that these deals can come together, right?

Evon: Right.

Erich: it’s also continuing that time horizon that we understand, okay, what is the timing of that, of that path to [00:26:00] partnership going to be, you

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: it appropriate for someone to start as a junior partner or become in 50 50?

I mean, really what we’re wanting to stay away from is finding situations where doctors are forced into asset sales.

Evon: Yes. Right.

Erich: and I say forced into an asset sale. It’s one thing to. Proactive, full asset sale. But it’s another thing where you’re in your mid late sixties, your spouse has been hounding you for years to hang it up.

And now you’ve finally gotten to a point where you’re just, you’re just done. You’re worn out. And that is so real. Life Evon. And that’s actually, I mean, that’s a big thing. That’s a big thing. That why, why I’m so passionate about the work that we do, you know? because we want to be sure that folks that have poured their life, their life into building their businesses have something amazing to show for their work in that business, and also have something amazing to, to, to bless their community with moving forward.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: happen when it’s that next [00:27:00] generation of the independent owners that are coming in, and we see it across the board. Look, I that essay that the review published a few months back. I think we actually

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: our last recording was right around the time

Evon: Right after that. Yeah. Yeah.

Erich: you know, we’re looking

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: And the stats are this y’all. we look at healthcare here in the us, we know that provider burnout rate is through the roof. Cost of care continues to climb the overall quality of care and patient experiences in the skids. When we look at private practice as a segment of that broader healthcare system, see that the rate of provider burnout in private practice is less than national benchmarks.

The cost of care is lower and the quality of care and patient experience is through the roof. As a matter of fact, patients prefer going to private practice at a rate of four to one over corporate big box, private equity, you name it. So we’re talking about, we’re talking about stakeholders here. We’re not talking about one doctor selling this business to another doctor, [00:28:00] how much is this one gonna retire with?

How nice of an opportunity is the new incoming doctor gonna have to grow in this to grow in and thrive in this business? But we’re talking about stakeholders. These stakeholders are across the board. It’s doctors, it’s the team they employ. ’cause small business drives the workforce and communities all over in private practice employing. And then third, the patients there in the community. So we’re talking about private practice. It’s truly, it’s truly rich as far as all of the stakeholders that are gonna be impacted by these decisions. And, and, and I would challenge in which environment are all the stakeholders best served?

Evon: Hmm. What do we know with certainty? We know with certainty that you, listener will exit your practice. At some point. We know that it’s gonna be unexpected or it’s gonna be expected, planned for,

Erich: I.

Evon: but at some point you’re going to exit your practice. And the question is, [00:29:00] how and how well are you thinking about that ahead of time and how well are you planning for that?

’cause it can be on your terms, it can be exactly as you desire, assuming that you’ve done well to plan financially leading up to that and that you’ve done well planning on the business side leading up to that. It can be on your terms and you can plan for the unexpected as well. The, the question is how.

And as I think about this timeline, you talk about, and, and we can, we can move on from this question that I’m asking, but as I think about this timeline, I, I do feel like earlier, mid-career owner is gonna be more motivated by, by separation of duties, by the skillset of another owner complimenting their own.

I, I feel like earlier in a career, the motivation for co-ownership is to me, very likely going to be more motivated by, by complimentary skill sets and growth opportunities of the business or, or time, you know, time management for, for the owner that later in the career as they’re, as [00:30:00] they’re getting closer to exiting, it’s, it sounds like it’s gonna be much more.

Motivated by, not only skillset, but more motivated by exit of that initial owner, doctor and, and just planning that succession outta the business. Does that, do you feel like that’s what you’ve seen as well?

Erich: Yeah, absolutely. And as a matter of fact, I think something that speaks remarkably well to that is the following. So, Evon, you know, I, I’m very grateful and privileged to have the opportunity to do some work with the American Optometric Association Center

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: Independent Practice. And in working with their teams specifically what I do is I will go into the Optometry schools and teach the students, business, as a matter of fact, next month, April 25, can’t wait to get out to the,

I,

Evon: Kentucky

Erich: College of Optometry there

Evon: Ooh.

Erich: up in Pikeville. And, what I’ve, what I’ve would’ve picked up in doing these, these speaking events, these campuses, is that there is a ton. Of interest in practice ownership, [00:31:00] mean a ton of interest in practice ownership, Evon. And the fact is, is that where there’s this huge interest in practice ownership, to build on that, it seems that a lot of these emerging practice owners are interested, not so much in going and cold starting their own thing and kind of reinventing the wheel, a lot of them are looking to become a partner and or purchase a practice that’s already established. So it’s fascinating you mentioned that regarding earlier, looking for complimentary skillsets, you know, kind of, you know, distribution of duties and stuff. So we definitely see, I believe in our up and coming generation of practice owners, a rabid desire and excitement and interest in getting into private practice.

I. also they are looking for opportunities to come in, join an established practice, learn, learn how to run a business, learn how to run a profitable business, and go from there as opposed [00:32:00] to perhaps generation or two ago, heck, maybe even as, as, as simple as, say, 15 years ago,

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: there was a less interest in practice ownership and perhaps more interest in, in the Cold Start piece.

Evon: Gotcha.

Erich: to build on that, also something else that I wanted to, to, wanted to, to, to, to mention that kind of plays into this, and that is later in career when looking for, for partner. And this whole context of kinda like, when is the right time to start doing this? If we’re waiting, if we’re waiting as our, as our window of opportunity is closing shut on our career, funnels getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

What does that mean? Less options.

Evon: Mm

Erich: Which means what? You could have worked your tail off for decades and decades and decades, but every year you wait to share it with the world to promote it, to find someone to come in. Every year that you wait, [00:33:00] your ability to actually sell that thing at a really good price is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

Evon: mm.

Erich: Right.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: especially if a prospective buyer is working with consultants, right?

Evon: Yeah. Right,

Erich: works.

Evon: right.

Erich: So, so the message to the, to the owners do not wait. Do not wait until you’re ready to do it. To do it, because gonna take it on the chin. You’re gonna be leaving dollars on the table, as opposed to if you do it earlier when you’re, I mean, ideally when you’re still in the peak earnings years, the ultimate would be to pull a partner in when you’re still actually growing those peak earnings years.

That’s the ultimate, that’s the win-win, win for everyone involved. You can get top dollar for your sale. That top dollar for your sale will be fully justified through the valuation and through the due diligence of the buyer. Again, if this things are continuing on a growth trajectory, then if that buyer has a complimentary [00:34:00] skillset where then we can then open up revenue even more. This is just a super win-win win for all parties involved. But it doesn’t happen if we’re sitting on the sideline waiting, waiting, waiting. Right. Evon, the Heartbreakers, the Heartbreakers are when it’s gone too long.

And to that end, actually, I’ll, I’ll share with you something that we just learned of, towards the end of last year in that, we came to connecting with a doctor who owned a practice or owns a practice, brought in an associate on a path to partnership.

That associate was working two or three days a week with them. And then that associate was also associating the other two or three days, a week, two towns over

Evon: Mm.

Erich: in a practice that so happens to be a good friend of the other practice that this, this young doctor’s associating in Fast forward [00:35:00] couple years go by bye, associate buys, practice B. Now get this Evon associate came to town to associate with practice A this practice on a path to partnership. This practice didn’t have the volume to support five days a week. So this associate then went and associated the other two or three days a week, two towns over where they were

Evon: Ah, interesting.

Erich: the way, that introduction came from Practice A. Oh yeah, you need some more time. My buddy, two towns over in practice B, could use some help.

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: Two years in associate bought practice. B.

Evon: Leaving owner a without many options.

Erich: Owner A effectively gets this associate to come to the region to employ this associate on a path to partnership ,associates looking for more hours, they start [00:36:00] associating practice B. Two years later they buy practice B. What did practice B do? That practice A didn’t do.

Evon: They, they had that conversation. It sounds like

Erich: the question,

Evon: They asked the question. Yeah.

Erich: Evon.

Evon: Yeah,

Erich: And that’s, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s gotta change man. That has got to change and

Evon: yeah.

Erich: so often and it’s heartbreaking, right? It’s absolutely heartbreaking to all parties involved.

Evon: And I, it, it, I think it even goes further than that. Yes. Market your PR, market, your business. I mean, you are selling an asset, right? You are presenting it for sale. You need to market your business so that you can get the best qualified candidates for purchase, but you also have to present it in a way that shows that the cash flows of this business are not super risky.

You think about that owner going into it, what are the stresses of that new associate? Well, [00:37:00] the stresses are family, life, mortgage, potentially student loans. Are they going to, they’re going to feel the risk of taking on additional debt, potentially taking on business ownership duties, the uncertainty of business ownership, and so well, how do we help that associate doctor feel better about that transition?

Well, you present your practice as an opportunity that doesn’t carry substantial risk. Well, how do you do that? Well, number one, you have,we’re gonna go down the road here. We have clean, accurate, timely financial statements so you can present clean, accurate data. You can track data about. How that practice is doing.

Number two, actually, have a practice that’s worth buying. Have an Optometry practice that’s working well, working with your peers, working with consultants like Erich to make sure that your practice is operating in a way that a buyer’s going to want to buy it. And we can start to go down this road. You do have to present your business as something, another, another associate doctor is going to want to buy.

[00:38:00] Understanding that you as a seller probably built the business from scratch, has all the attachments of the identity of being that business owner of those years, those, that capital built up in that business, those years with the patients understanding that there’s two parties to this transaction and each one has to feel comfortable about the risk and opportunity of that transaction.

Structure of Adding an Associate OD as a Partner

Evon: And we talked a lot about timing, motivation, purpose in doing this. Let’s talk a little bit about structure. Let’s say that owner doctor brings on that associate and I, I didn’t even ask about what the associate should look for in the, in the practice to know, to know that it’s a good opportunity for the associate, but maybe we’ll save that for another conversation.

Erich: A due diligence. You know, Evon, we should do

Evon: We did a due diligence episode.

Erich: due diligence.

Evon: We, I think we’ve done one already. If we have, I’ll throw it in the show notes. So listener, please listen to that. ’cause there is some due diligence on your side too, buying associate. But let’s talk about [00:39:00] structure. That hire happens. Both parties agree, it’s a great fit, everyone’s happy.

How do they structure that transaction? Where do they start?

Erich: Yeah, that’s a’s a really, really great question, right? Because there’s all sorts of ways to go about doing this. Okay? For starters, this is gonna be a, a stock sale, right? So that, that, that associates be buying stock in this business. So far as structuring this goes, a lot of it ties back to timeline. And in so doing, we come to thinking that timeline and we think of our clinical performance, clinical production, right? We think of executive duty and then we think of profit like as being a shareholder of the business. And this is where things get really fascinating when you start talking about what you were mentioning a moment ago regarding how is business cash flowing? know, what is an appropriate price based on how it’s cash flowing? Can an associate afford this? But it’s not until we, we look at [00:40:00] the business from those three angles, we understand our, the clinical production, clinical responsibilities of the partner. In, in meeting those needs, right? We think of the executive duty and executive function of the partner.

’cause when you are in business ownership, it’s more than just seeing patients and going home, know? Although now more than ever, I will argue now more than ever, you can absolutely do it. You know, thanks to a lot of resources and tools that are out there.

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: And then the third piece is gonna be the profit share. Now the reason why I bring those up in filling this question regarding how to structure it is because there’s gonna be a debt service that that incoming buyer, that that junior partner is gonna have to meet in addition to debt service. They also have to put food on the table for their family.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: that’s how and why when you’re looking at the actual feasibility of this stuff.

And by the way, there’s a lot of things that, that play into this. I mean, there are personal assets. There’s, you know, debt to [00:41:00] income ratio. You know, do you own a home? How many dependencies? I mean, there’s a whole world of underwriting that banks will get into. We’re gonna stay away from that for, for these purposes.

We’re gonna focus on the business, right? So in as much as underwriting would include analyzing the business, we need to understand that there’s gonna be those three streams of income coming to that junior partner. And it’s not until we can really understand how are they impacting clinical profitability?

What is their share of executive responsibility, and what is their share of the profit share? Then we can see how much money is flowing to the partner. And then you figure out, okay, based on what’s flowing to the partner, what is appropriate for them to be covering in debt service, realizing they still will likely have a house note to pay if they have a family, they gotta put

Evon: Right.

Erich: et cetera, et cetera.

Evon: Right.

Erich: So in that regard, that then will set us up for an appropriate tranche for [00:42:00] that first step into partnership. Ideally, you go at 50 50 or 51 49, like get as close to 50 50 out of the blocks. there’s a variety of reasons for that. I mean, but primarily it’s, it’s, it’s a simplicity thing.

However, there are occasions where in smaller tranches is appropriate and typically that appropriateness ties back to what kind of lending, how is the business cash flowing today that the junior associate can buy in? What’s an appropriate amount?

Evon: Gotcha.

Erich: where, you know, and, and it all ties back to there, there’s a fascinating world around all of this with so many options available, Evon, and I gotta tell you, I feel also very confident that if were aware that there’s all these different ways that this stuff can go.

Evon: Right?

Erich: think simply basing that awareness, more doctors would be more comfortable and more confident in being proactive in speaking up.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: But I think right now a lot of people kind of think like, oh, [00:43:00] it’s an all or nothing. Like

Evon: Yes.

Erich: until I’m ready to sell my business and retire.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: typically retirement is something we don’t plan until, know, very short time horizon.

Evon: Yes, yes.

Erich: of, and when I say, you know, you wanna plan for your retirement through your entire career. By the way, if you’re not, you absolutely gotta connect with Evon

Evon: Reach out please.

Erich: But, but in the context of planning it over your career, to draw the line in the sand and say that’s gonna be the year, that’s usually something that people are doing two, three, maybe five years max.

What we are talking about in partnership starts even before that.

Evon: Gotcha.

Erich: Maybe a five to 10 year, or heck, perhaps even longer than that. I mean, if you ask my, my, my, my good friend and collaborator, GRT Summit, Dr. Paul Morman, how they’re doing things, it’s fascinating how Paul, you know, he’s, he’s actually, that perhaps he should actually have him on the show [00:44:00] Evon, Dr.

Paul Morman, to talk about a little bit about how, how they’re structuring it to get

Evon: I might need to, yeah.

Erich: to get these, these really, you know, get younger doctors on this path to partnership very early on in their career. And this also means that as the senior doctor, it’s not like you’re in your sixties as a senior doctor, but now this really kind of, kind of changes the script for doctors in bringing in partners.

It sounds like timeline of the selling doctor. How long do they want to be involved in the business? What is their timeline to exit? That might dictate a little bit of that timeline of the structure. And as you mentioned, it isn’t, it doesn’t need to be all or nothing. It can be if that’s what the situation calls for, but it doesn’t need to be.

Evon: There might be this anchor points, as you mentioned, somewhere close to 50 50 and I, I’ve heard varying opinions on some people wanting to keep 51% to maintain control. Others are saying no, make it 50 50. So I. Both owners [00:45:00] have a say in the business. I, I don’t know if you have any particular thoughts around that, but there might be this anchor starting point, and then you can structure the length of it from there.

Knowing the, the selling doctor’s time horizon, and as you mentioned it, that it, it also seems like it depends on the, maybe the size of the practice or maybe just the, the business goals of the current owner in that, I, I’m thinking about some relationships I’m fortunate to, to serve and work with in that it’s a larger practice, but they’re bringing in multiple owners, and so multiple owners are buying smaller chunks.

Over a longer period of time, for a much larger practice. And that works for the current owner’s timeline, as you mentioned, it works for the current buyer’s cash flow and timeline as well. It works for all parties and it obviously works for patients ’cause there’s just continuity of ownership and continuity of care.

So have you seen that? It also depends on sort of that business goal, ultimate business goal or the size of the practice as well.

Erich: Yeah, absolutely.[00:46:00]

Evon: And what are your thoughts on financing? Because it, it can be third party financing through a bank, could be owner financing through an installment sale. Maybe there’s some tax considerations involved there. What are your thoughts on that?

Erich: You know, that’s very much, that’s very much a case by case

Evon: Gotcha.

Erich: right. I. Yeah, I mean, you’ll see it all. We’ll see using banks, we’ll see, you know, fully bank funded, fully owner financed, some sort of combination. If the bank is this, but the owner’s saying, I want this for my business. And, you know, they’ll get this from the bank for, for that bill of sale, and then have something worked out for owner financing piece. So it’s really, it really ties back to everyone’s goals in endgame.

Evon: Gotcha.

Erich: it does make it cleaner when banks are involved and you can get the funding [00:47:00] from a, from a third party and that transfer of that, those funds can happen like that. It just, it does make for things to be nice and clean.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: and that’s not, that’s not saying that there aren’t amazing things. Again, I mean, we’ve, we’ve got clients that use, we’ve worked with projects and have active clients that are using all these different combinations.

Evon: Yep.

Erich: a case by case. But, when you have a third party that’s provided that financing so that the seller can get their money, it’s just, it just makes for things to be really, really, really clean. especially Evon. And this doesn’t apply so much to this conversation as we’re talking about, like partnership and stuff, you know, associate to partner. But think of that next step where say it’s a full asset sale, right? Or that, or that partner buys out that chunk from the retiring doctors. So now you have one, one owner, what have you. Anytime an owner is gonna stay on the payroll as an employed doctor. [00:48:00] We would definitely want to highly recommend encourage those funds coming from a bank

Evon: Gotcha.

Erich: because things can get kind of complicated when it’s owner financed and that owner is now employed in the business.

It can just kind of get sticky.

Evon: You think about that, okay, you’ve sold your practice, you’re working in the business. Your ability to get your paycheck from that sale relies on the decisions of the current owner. No longer you, you’re seeing those decisions probably going to be second guessing a lot. Hey, that’s not how I would’ve done it.

I would’ve done this. And so you can see how there’s some complicated dynamics that could unfold when the seller doctor’s still involved in the practice in that situation. And I agree from a financial perspective, I’d want to model these different variations to see how it impacts the planning for, for the selling doctor, particularly the retirement planning and tax planning.

How are we gonna create income in what order are those things and [00:49:00] come in. But it, it’s, there’s sort of a balance between risk and accessibility for the buyer. Risk for the seller. If you’re doing owner financing, the longer it takes for you to get your dollars, the more risk there is to that, especially if you’re not involved.

Meaning if it’s not an installment sale while you’re currently an owner, if it’s an installment sale when you and you’re gonna be exiting, then those dollars are entirely up to the ownership abilities of that, that buyer. And so there’s some risk to you, the seller, if you’re doing owner financing, especially if you’re no longer involved in the practice at all.

So you need to make sure that the interest rate on that owner financing is appropriate. but there’s also some accessibilities, meaning the buyer can more accessibly buy into the practice and take over, even if it’s over time. And so there’s sort of a trade off. I do think it’s cleaner when the seller can get their money from a third party bank and everyone can kind of just move on from there.

How to Structure Compensation Between the Partners

Evon: what about structuring compensation for both sides? If you have two doctors still there, two owners. [00:50:00] Is it really just looking at the duties of each and then sort of structuring that together? What, what are your thoughts on that?

Erich: Yeah. It, it kind of ties back to, so what we touched on earlier in the conversation as well with those, those, those kind of the, the three responsibilities, right? So the three responsibilities of co-owners are gonna be clinical. We gotta be seeing patients to get dollars come in the door, right? They’re gonna be executive duty.

Okay. So as from a running the business standpoint, now we kind of have this division of labor from an executive standpoint. And then the third is gonna be the profit share, right? So as far as structuring the comp, think clinically you get a piece of what you see. So, and it would make sense that if one partner is seeing more patients than another partner or has higher rev per patient, whatever the case may be, it would make sense that you’re more based on the work that you’re doing.

Okay. So clinical comp based [00:51:00] on clinical production, executive duty based on duty. So make a list, you know, sometimes it’s typically, it’s a list of about 10 duties, and then you can find ways to, you know, kind of distribute these accordingly. And definitely as it pertains to executive duty, definitely want to play on strengths.

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: a matter of fact, you look at a lot of partnerships where you have a senior partner and a junior partner, and it’s really, it’s beautiful to see how organic those strengths are. Right.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: There’s a lot of newer things, particularly in the marketing front and some other operational things where younger doctors are really plugged into new modern ways of doing this. versus when you look at say, cash flow and finance and finance management, that’s typically one of those areas where a younger Dr. May be maybe wanting to learn a bit more from that established doctor.

Evon: Gotcha.

Erich: So that’s our executive GD piece. And then the third is gonna be profit share, and that’s just purely based on percentage of ownership.

Evon: Yeah. That, that’s a, that’s a great [00:52:00] framework and a lot of it there, there’s going to be a tax aspect of how that entity is taxed. With an S corporation, you are essentially, you’re essentially adjusting the wage. I mean, that’s, that’s your biggest lever. The, the profit distributions to the owners have to be pro rata primarily for the most part.

So the, the biggest lever you can pull there with an S corporation is gonna be the wage with a partnership, whether it’s an LLLC tax, as a partnership, or otherwise, you have a lot more leverage to pull and a lot more flexibility. And so.

How that entity’s taxed de determines a lot of that. there are some attorneys that will, will layer the underlying entity as a partnership to give you more flexibility and will, will, each owner will have their own separate entity. So for tax, tax playing purposes, I mean this, this really just goes to show that you, you do need a really good team around you as you’re going through these conversations.

Have a great attorney in the mix so they can review and create good legal documents. Have a good tax planning professional in the mix, whether it’s a CPA or Enrolled Agent, [00:53:00] EA. See, can talk about these different levers, these different opportunities for doing this as, as well as you can. legal aspects.

Legal Documents to Review During the Practice Transition

Evon: We talked about the attorney. I’d love to hear if you have any, any insights on this. Some things that come to mind for me. This is gonna be an immediate review of, operating agreements, if it’s an LLC or if it’s a corporation shareholder agreement. States, certain states of California, you’re gonna have to be a corporation, professional corporation.

So, shareholder agreement, buy, sell provisions in these documents are really important so that if certain triggers happen, death, disability, divorce, conduct detrimental to the team, all these D words, there, there’s a clear trigger to purchase someone else’s ownership. And then how is that gonna be funded?

So for example, if it’s death or disability, you can very often insure that through insurance, life insurance, disability buyout insurance. very often there’s gonna be other provisions like, the ability to purchase over x amount of years at x interest rates. So all of those provisions in these [00:54:00] documents are really important, which the attorney is, it needs to be really involved in.

Erich, do you have any other thoughts on the legal documents involved here?

Erich: Yeah, you hit on a lot of really remarkable things. Okay, so you’re gonna need the bill of sale. That bill of sale has got to explicitly state everything that’s gonna be involved in there, right? So that’s basically saying, so bill of sale is, hey, this is what percentage of the business is being sold to them and this is all, what’s all included in that?

Right? Second to that, I love how you touched on the operating agreement Evon and, and to listeners out there, get it all sorted out on the front end in that operating agreement.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: You know, the calls that we love, the calls that teams like Akrinos and Evon, I would imagine yourself also like the stuff that we love is when people are like, Hey, we wanna enter our partnership.

This is super exciting. Get it done for us. Okay. Those are amazing. Those are exciting. The calls we hate, Hey, I’m in a bad business marriage and one of the first [00:55:00] things you do when you discover you’re in a bad business marriage, it ain’t working out, is you go to that operating agreement.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: real heartbreaker when you, when we’re getting calls, people that are in, in, in, in incongruent partnerships

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: you go to the operating agreement and there’s like nothing there.

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: operating agreement is so absolutely vital, right? The third thing, Evon buy, sell. That’s something also that is absolutely vital and know that the bank is gonna require buy, sell and funding a buy sell. But above and beyond that, it’s important that the business also, and, and for partners perhaps to have their own arrangements and other insurances that are gonna put money directly into the business.

That’s a very big disconnect under understand that that buy sells. They come in different functions, there’s different ways to fund these things. And really, really important. There’s also, there’s a lot of misinformation out there around insurances as well, Evon, so I’m

Evon: Yep.

Erich: bring that up. Then another piece also [00:56:00] that’s really important on the legal side of things, you need a lease.

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: you’re on one of these month to month, and this perhaps applies more to doctors that are looking to totally sell out as opposed to a partnership. But even, even so, if you’re on a month to month or you’re, you know, within a year of your lease and you are not yet renewed, you’re not gonna be able to sell that business. You’re not gonna be able to bring in a partner. That partner or that buyer is not gonna be able to secure financing.

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: You have got to have a place to call home for this business, for

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: future. So, I mean, look, Evon you, everything, everything else could be lined up and then you have a landlord. That’s been on a lease to lease with the tenant. Why? Oh, the tenant’s been there for decades. The last official lease expired two years ago, but the landlord’s keeping [00:57:00] the optometrist around. So they’ve been a great loyal tenant for all these years, but, oh, why don’t they wanna renew the lease?

’cause when they do a renewal, those rates are gonna go up to a market rate. You’re not gonna be able to sell that thing. You’re not gonna be able to remove a partner, at least not within your sort of conventional finance. And you’re gonna have to figure out some sort of owner financed arrangement. Evon, I love how you mentioned risk, right? There’s more risk in owner financing than there is in working those traditional banks.

Evon: Yeah, there is.

Erich: risk if you don’t have a place to call home for this business.

Evon: That’s right.

Erich: these things line up. So, yeah, be sure you have a lease in addition to all these other legal documents, that lease has got to be to

Evon: Yeah.

Erich: of that business.

Evon: Yeah. I, I, I love, I love what you mentioned. I, I’ve actually not seen that, where there’s a month to month lease going into the sale. One thing I’ll add is that if for, for the buying doctors.

Erich: it because the sale went with, the sale fell

Evon: Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Interesting, interesting. And one thing I’ll add for, for the buying doctor, as soon as [00:58:00] you take full ownership, have that operating agreement looked at again, I’ve seen situations where whether it’s a single doctor or a husband and wife, doctor, team fully purchase out their ex co-owners, the operating agreement was too strict on how it required them to send out dollars to the owners.

Didn’t give them enough flexibility now that they owned it fully. So that is another trigger. Okay. As soon as you own the, the business fully. That’s another trigger to go talk with the attorney, review that, make sure that that operating agreement allows the, the rules of the business allow you to do what you need to do.

And it fits the current situation now. And so we’ve, we’ve talked about Erich, we’ve talked about motivations, timing, we’ve talked a lot about structure. And I think one big takeaway for me is that there are a lot of ways to structure this. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. You can tailor to these transitions in a way that makes the most sense for the seller’s timeline, the buyer’s ability, and what makes the most sense [00:59:00] for, for everybody.

Final Thoughts

Evon: And so I, I’d like to just talk about final wrap up thoughts, what, you know, something you’d like to leave with the, the listener. And I’ll, I’ll, one thing I’ll say, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll go first ’cause it’s my show. So, so I’ll go first. Why not? Um. The earlier you can prepare for these things, the better it’s going to be.

Both fa from a, from a business perspective, you can make improvements to the business where they need to be made. But from a financial perspective, the earlier you can plan and the better you can plan financially outside of just the business equity, the more optionality you’re gonna have when you want to exit your practice.

If you do not prepare well, meaning if you are not regularly taking the cash flows of your practice to first reinvest into the practice and then to balance out your net worth with other assets. If you’re not doing that throughout your career leading up to this point, and you are reliant entirely on the value of that practice, you may not have the options you need. [01:00:00] If your entire ability to be financially independent relies on a certain valuation that may limit the type of sellers you can sell to, and you may not like the deal that you’re gonna get in order to get that price. And so. The earlier, the better you can plan financially outside of the business and in it, the better off you’re gonna be.

The more options you will have as you get to that point.

And as I say that, I fully understand that there are optometrists out there, maybe listening, that are very intentionally building up large multi-location practices, purchasing locations, building in locations with the sole intention of selling for a very high sale value.

And so you’re building enterprise value and the difference is that you’re taking on that dynamic intentionally. That’s not always the case. Very often the business owner finds him or herself. At that point, later in their career, just simply having not been well prepared financially for that point.

And so, the earlier you can start preparing, [01:01:00] the more options you’re gonna give yourself.

And then please rely on your team. This is me now talking as an advisor. Yes, the financial Advisor’s important, yada, yada. Make sure you have a good consultant walking you through the business aspects. Make sure you have a good tax professional, a good attorney, a good banking partner.

Make sure you have these people on your team. ’cause this is a big, a big transaction. This is a big career move, a big life decision for everybody involved and so have the people you need to have involved there. Erich, final thoughts from you.

Erich: Final thoughts, and to build on that. ’cause I could not agree more with that. Evon. It really is. Look it, it’s about the team. It’s about a team, right? I mean, just like patient care listeners out there, you can be the most amazing doctor eyecare has ever seen. But you can only go so far unless you have that good team in office, right?

Your experienced technicians, your opticians, your front end team and all that, right? So thinking the same way there, you [01:02:00] can’t go alone when you’re taking care of patients. You can’t go alone when you’re doing these sorts of business milestones. So that is absolutely vitally important. And Evon, I suppose my, my leaving thought if yours is, build your team, work with a team. My leaving thought is all about proactivity.

Evon: Hmm.

Erich: Be proactive.

Evon: Got it. Love it. Well, Erich, I appreciate your time. This was great. we’ll throw all of these links, resources, anything we mentioned in this episode in the show notes for the listener. And appreciate listener, appreciate you listening. Would love to hear your thoughts or experience about going through this yourself.

Questions you have, send that over to us and we will catch you on the next episode. In the meantime, take care.  [01:03:00]