Episode 99 Transcript

[00:00:04] Evon: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to The Optometry Money Podcast, where we’re helping ODs all over the country make better and better decisions around their money, their careers, and their practices. I am your host Evon Mendrin, Certified Financial Planner(TM) practitioner and owner of Optometry Wealth Advisors, an independent financial planning firm, just for optometrists nationwide.

[00:00:26] And thank you so much for listening. Really appreciate your time and attention. And on today’s episode, I have a fantastic guest, Mr. Michael Pote. of The Growth Cooperative. And Michael helps facilitate sales and transactions of private practices, to both private equity, as well as OD to OD.

[00:00:46] And, we’d have into creative ways you can structure the sale of your optometry practice from you to the next generation of optometrist. And we talk a little bit about the structure of private equity sales. We talk about the structure of OD to OD sales, the, the pros and cons to both. And then we dive into creative ideas to make that transition work for both parties. For both the buyer and the seller, as well as what makes a more prepared buyer and what makes a more prepared seller.

[00:01:15] And I really enjoyed this conversation I think there can be a fear, a concern from the practice owners respective of if their practice is too large. Are they going to be able to sell it? And I think there’s a fear, concern, a hesitation from the associate optometrists, the next generation buyer optometrist perspective.

[00:01:33] And wondering, can I afford to buy into the practice? Can I get lending to buy into the practice?

[00:01:40] And with the ongoing concern of keeping independent optometry practices independent and in the hands and ownership of optometrists, I really appreciate the way he thinks about structuring a buy-in of another doctor over time, rather than all at once. Piecing that transaction together into digestible bites rather than the whole, the whole practice at once.

[00:02:02] And if you have any questions or thoughts, please reach out to me at podcast@optometrywealth.Com. You can check out all of Michael’s information and resources in the show notes, which you can find at the education hub on my website, www.optometrywealth.com.

[00:02:18] And while you’re there, if you’d like to explore what it looks like to work with Optometry Wealth Advisors for your own financial planning.

[00:02:24] You can schedule a no commitment introductory call.

[00:02:27] We can talk about whatever’s on your mind financially and how I help optometrists all over the country navigate those same exact questions and more. And without further ado, here is my conversation with Michael Pote.

[00:02:45] Start of the Interview

[00:02:45] Evon: Welcome back to the Optometry Money Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. And on today’s episode, I am excited to have on, a fantastic guest, which is Michael Pote Growth Cooperative. Michael, thank you so much for coming on.

[00:02:58] Michael: Pleasure. Nice to be here again.

[00:03:00] Evon: Yeah, nice to have you on and I’m excited to dive into a riveting topic for me and I think something that’s really timely, and that’s creative strategies around structuring transitions of an optometry practice, of a sale of an optometry practice.

[00:03:15] And you are not new to optometry, Michael, but you’re new to the audience. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little bit of your, your background. Tell us about the Growth Cooperative and some of the work you’re doing.

[00:03:26] Michael: I’ve been working in optometry now for almost 20 years. Started out as a Marketer, helping practices, market to their communities. I was living overseas at the time, so, web work, you know, online work, was great. And then I launched, what was then known as, the Association for Corporate Optometrists and built that from the ground up and then had an opportunity was approached by a private equity firm who said, Hey, you know, a lot of optometrists, we have a lot of money. Would you help us connect? We’re looking to acquire. And this was back in 2015. And so, we began working together and then they said, you don’t have to just work with us.

[00:04:12] You can work with all of the PE firms. And, what I did was develop a, a very, educational approach to helping doctors understand this thing called PE and what does that mean for me? And, you know, that kind of stuff. And since then I’ve probably done four or 500 practices.

[00:04:33] Evon: And so this must have been at the beginning of what was a recent big wave of private equity purchases in optometry, right?

[00:04:41] Michael: It was at the, it was when Kepler was known as, whatever their previous, name was. It was at the very, very start. AEG just getting started, MyEyeDoctor was probably at about through two, three hundred locations, you know, as opposed to the eleven hundred they have now. So, yes, it was, it was early on in that process.

[00:05:04] The market had not matured yet, and there was lots of opportunity for improvement, because people were still feeling their way through.

[00:05:13] Evon: And being so close to all these different transitions, especially with private equity, but also, with doctor to doctor transitions, give us sort of a lay of the land. Like what’s, what’s the state of the union in terms of practices being sold and bought. Tell us a little bit about what you’re seeing in terms of the number of practices for sale and who are they being sold to?

[00:05:35] And are there certain regions or types of practices that you’re seeing? Just give us sort of a lay of the land of what you’re seeing for practice transitions.

[00:05:43] Michael: Sure. I think, from the seller side, what I’ve noticed and I continue to notice is that there’s still enormous opportunity for optometrists to have a better understanding of the financial aspects of their business. I would say for every 10 practices that I speak to, 7 or 8 need to be sent back to the drawing board to fix things, to clean things up, to make adjustments before they are ready for sale.

[00:06:14] That’s, that’s a big number. And, it really comes down to, you know, ODs being ODs first and foremost, and business owners really secondarily. And then your sale moment is really not about being an OD at all. It’s about being a business owner and cashing in or converting that asset that you’ve worked so hard to build into something that’s going to take care of you for the rest of your life.

[00:06:42] So for many doctors, it’s the first time they’ve looked at their financials. I’m sorry to say. And so I spend a lot of time with doctors who, I can’t sell you today. I can’t help you with that today, but I can help you get your act together and fix these things. And then let’s return to the sale process.

[00:07:03] On the buy side, PE firms are now slowing down considerably, so I hate to say it, but I, I really do feel like the train is leaving the station on, you know, if someone said to me, if a doctor said to me, well, how long do you think, private equity is going to continue to be buying? I would say there’s still years ahead but what’s changed considerably is how careful they’re being about that, how picky they’re being about that, so even more opportunity to go back to the drawing board and make a lot of strategic changes before selling.

[00:07:41] The other nice thing that I’ve seen lately is there has been a real resurgence in private sales. Young ODs looking to own their own practice and that’s, that’s relatively new for me. I, I had not seen that in the past and we’re seeing a real resurgence of that once again. So, those are some of the, some of the changes that, happening recently.

[00:08:06] Evon: And, I can certainly attest to that when having conversations with practice owners, one of the funnest parts are helping them to get an understanding of their financials because it’s not something they’re really aware of or, or really have a good understanding of before some of these conversations.

[00:08:21] I recently had a conversation about sort of the financial due diligence process of, of purchasing a practice, on the podcast a couple episodes ago. And one of the, one of the biggest points that they brought up was you’re helped so much as a seller by just having clean, accurate accounting, clean, accurate books for the financials, clean, accurate numbers for the operational side of the numbers.

[00:08:46] And, it makes it a smoother transition, or at least it makes a buyer more willing to take on the purchase if you can present clean, accurate information, and then as a, as an owner, it allows you to, like you said, Take a look into the numbers and start to make some decisions based on, on what you’re seeing, you’re not really able to do that unless you actually have clean, accurate accounting and books to, to take a look into.

[00:09:09] So that’s, it’s so important both when you’re trying to sell your business and also just while you’re owning it and making, making good business decisions. And, in terms of the. The doctor to doctor transitions, the OD to OD purchases and sales, are there certain parts of the country where you’re seeing that the most?

[00:09:27] Are there certain sizes of practices where you’re seeing that the most? Is it across the board? Any sort of trends or anything like that you can tell us about?

[00:09:37] Michael: Yeah, I’m not, certainly not geographically. I’m, I’m seeing sales coast to coast. People tend to come home to own a practice. So, you know, I went, I went to Salas University in Pennsylvania, but I grew up in, Michigan. So, I, I’m coming back. Home for that. We see that a lot. People are willing to work anywhere, but they’re, they’re usually inclined to own in an area that feels good and comfortable.

[00:10:06] So, you know, where they grew up. Size, is really, you have to be at a $750,000 revenue to even, have a discussion with the private equity firms. And again, even at that level. You really need to be at $8-900, a million dollars in revenue to have a real conversation with them now that that’s changing a little bit.

[00:10:29] So the vast majority, if you, if you take $750,000 as a marker, that’s going to move about 60 percent of the market into a private sale only phase. The, the doctors who have practices above that, of course, have a choice. I can sell to a young OD or I can sell the PE, but if you’re below 750, you’ve got one choice, which is to sell to another OD.

[00:10:54] And so we’re seeing a lot of that happening now because, private equity owns now 17, 18 percent of the market. And that’s all of the larger practices, not the smaller ones.

[00:11:05] Evon: A lot of opportunity then for associates or currently employed ODs that want to get into ownership. Let’s talk a little bit about the, the structuring of these transactions, how to think about, if you are either the seller or on the buying side, how to come together and to try to structure a, a sale or a purchase, a transition that works for both sides.

[00:11:27] And, one of the things you had mentioned to me in an, in an email was, these, these OD to OD sales, they lack the structure of a PE deal, but provide significant opportunity to to structure the deal in sort of infinite ways. And, and I thought that was an interesting point. And I think it’d be, it’d be good just for a sort of, comparison.

[00:11:49] Private Equity Sale Structures

[00:11:49] Evon: Talk to us about the general, like a brief overview of the structure of a P. E. deal. Like what, what exactly does that look like? And what are some of the advantages or, or disadvantages of, of going that direction?

[00:12:02] Michael: There, there really are two very different, outcomes that you’ll have by selling, to either a P. E. or another doctor. So, in the P. E. world, P. E. is driving the rules of the game. I know doctors think that they’re negotiating and things, but they’re really not. They’re either accepting or walking away from the offers that are being put on the table.

[00:12:23] That’s not to say that there isn’t some movement around employment, even around price, but by and large, the rules are in place. I can. You know, lay out exactly how your sale is going to go. Some of the things to know about a PE sale, the price is going to be higher, somewhat significantly higher than a private OD to OD sale.

[00:12:47] But with that comes a whole bunch of catches. Minimum of three years employment that you have to stay on. So I can’t tell you the number of doctors who call me and they Hi, I’m 71 years old and I’m looking to sell my practice and then I’m the guy that has to tell them and you’re going to be working till you’re at least 74 if you want to sell the PE because that’s the rule there.

[00:13:11] They’re going to give you an employment contract. They’re going to, if you own the building, give you a very nice lease PE, and a price and that’s it. That’s the end of that, that conversation. Everything else is dictated very strongly by them.

[00:13:27] OD to OD Sale Structures

[00:13:27] Michael: What I have discovered on the OD to OD side is, not to think of that event as an event, but as a process.

[00:13:38] So I’ll give you a couple of examples that will help illustrate my point. A lot of doctors come to the table. Let’s say I’m going to be the seller, the buyer, and, I’m looking to buy my practice. That means I’m going to come up with a certain amount of money. I’m going to give it to the, to the seller.

[00:13:53] And then that practice is mine and they’re going to go away. And that’s it. That’s the end of it. Well, that’s not true anymore. Practices, no longer cost $50,000 or $100,000. They’re big practices. You’re going to buy a half million dollar practice today. You’re going to pay about 70 percent of that gross in a price.

[00:14:13] It varies, but generally speaking, if you average it out, it’s about a 70%, of gross as a price. So. There aren’t too many young ODs, who’ve got that kind of money sitting in the bank that you’re going to write a check and you’re going to buy the practice. So now you’ve got to go to the bank, and I will tell you that despite the enormous amount of money that Banks are making right now, on an interest rate.

[00:14:39] They are not lending all that much. It’s very, very difficult for these young ODs to get loans, business loans of any size.

[00:14:50] So what do you do? You, you, you say, well, I, I guess I can’t buy that practice. And my answer is no, this is where we put on our creative heads. This is where we start thinking a little bit about out of the box.

[00:15:03] So I’ll give an example of a practice. I won’t share any details because it’s confidential, but essentially a doctor approached me and said, Hey, I’m looking for to buy a practice that’s within at least five miles of my house. And I said, well, good luck. I can’t help you because there’s only, you know, one other practice that fits that definition.

[00:15:25] You can call that doctor yourself and do that. Long, long story short, she said, okay, I can go a little further than that. Well, I had a client, a seller, who had a 2 million dollar practice. A very, very nice practice. Been around for 30 years. Beautiful building that the owner also owned. And, I came back to the associate and said, I’ve got an opportunity, but there’s no way you’re going out to borrow 1.7 million. You know, that’s just not going to happen. So what we did was, and I’ve done this many times since, was to create a sale process. So this doctor bought in at 25%, to get started. They acquired 25 percent of the shares. The owner still retained ownership is going to continue to work there. In two years, that, that associate has to buy another 24%.

[00:16:22] So, the owner is still 51%, right? Two years after that, they have to buy the remainder of the stock. They’re now an owner and they’ve been acquiring dividends and putting money away so they can afford the remainder of the practice. They’re now the practice owner, six years later. And then step four of the process is that they’re going to acquire the building. What a gift. I wish that someone, when I was, you know, 30 years old said, Hey, Mike, I’ve got this 10 year program, and when you’re 40 years old, you’re going to own what will then be a $3 million practice, not a $2 million practice, and a $3 million building. And guess what? You’re set. You’re, you’ve got yourself your financial plan for the remainder of your career.

[00:17:13] I mean, wow.

[00:17:15] Evon: Right, right. So in, in the private equity side, the clear advantage is potentially a higher dollar amount. So once it’s all said and done, assuming it, assuming it goes as structured as planned, it’s a higher dollar amount, on the drawback side of it is that there’s no wiggle room for you to really negotiate any major parts of that.

[00:17:33] And you’re sort of taking it or leaving it, right? You, you need to work for a certain amount of years. And part of it, I believe, is going to be withheld until you fulfill that part of the, the contract,

[00:17:43] Michael: That is correct.

[00:17:44] Evon: if you get the full amount up front. There’s definitely some strings attached.

[00:17:48] On the other hand, it sounds like the, the advantages of OD to OD purchases, outside of keeping the practice within, within, private optometry, is that It’s everything’s negotiable, right? So you’re able to really structure these, these transitions as creatively as necessary in order for that transition to happen.

[00:18:09] And, perhaps the drawback is that, well, it’s, it’s a lower purchase price once it’s all said and done. Is that sort of a fair, compare contrast?

[00:18:17] Michael: That’s fair. That’s fair. On the other hand, you know, in the case that I just went over, that doctor is able to sell, or will be able to sell her building. P. E. will never buy real estate, right? So, and when I met this seller, she was like, I really don’t want to leave. I’ve got a good five or six years left in me.

[00:18:40] And I said, well, how about eight? And she said, well, that would be perfect. And, and so this isn’t just about an amazing deal for that associate, which again, I believe it was, it’s a perfect fit on what the owner wants to do. And then she will cash out all of her assets at about a time when she’s 64 years old.

[00:19:02] And she’s going to go, you know, hang out on the beach. That’s what she wants to do. So it, it, is really the creative part about this is aligning what can the buyer, the associate OD, what can they do financially and what can the, what does the owner, what are they looking for? Employment, real estate. Longevity, how long they want to work, all kinds of stuff like that.

[00:19:28] Evon: Yeah, that’s, I think that’s so helpful to hear, especially as the associate doctor looking to get into that and that, not to be sort of put off by this fear of the bank, you know, the bank being the middleman and, and the gatekeeper to this transition. And what, you know, the way you’re describing it is there’s a lot of ways to, to make this work as long as buyer and seller can come together and figure out something that works for both of them.

[00:19:51] Michael: Right,

[00:19:52] Creative Strategies for Structuring an OD to OD Sale

[00:19:52] Evon: Let’s talk about different strategies then that you’ve seen, in putting together these sales from, from doctor to doctor. What, what are some things you’ve seen or ways you’ve seen to put these transitions together?

[00:20:06] Michael: Right. So, a couple of things that are prevalent and they need to change. When sellers are selling they need to understand they’re selling. It’s a sale. You need to be positive. You need to be excited, right? You’re selling a product. You know, you would never go to a store and have the associate go, oh, that’s, you don’t want that.

[00:20:28] You know, you, you, you’re in a positive mood and I can’t tell you how many, selling ODs come to the table. And I have to say, I, I want to remind you of the role you’re playing right now. You’re a salesman. Okay. Whether you like it or not, I don’t really care, but you, that is the role you’re playing. So that’s the first thing.

[00:20:49] On the buy side, you know, this idea that I’m going to get something for nothing is also pretty prevalent. You know, I’ve got about $10,000 in my bank account. I’ll just write you a check and you’ll give me your practice, right? And you’re like, what? No. These things cost money, even at the lower side, you know, not the PE rate, but at a lower rate.

[00:21:13] This doctor is selling you 30 years of goodwill, a patient base of 20,000, you know, you’re buying something, somewhat intangible, but something very real. And you need to be respectful. You need to be, you need to honor that person for where they are in their career, as they should honor you for where you are in your career.

[00:21:36] And when those two things happen, we’ve got ourselves a sale. We’re going to make this work. Then it’s just details.

[00:21:45] Evon: That’s such a good point. And there, there, there needs to be this mutual respect for the process, right? Of, of what you’re buying and what you’re selling. Like, you know, you’re, you take a house, for example, like your house, I think is a pretty good metaphor for this whole process. Like if you’re going to sell your house.

[00:22:00] You need to make sure you’re, you understand that you’re selling it and marketing it, right? It needs to be spruced up. The, the, the, the lawn needs to be well maintained. The paint needs to be done. You need to sort of look at your practice and it’s kind of that same light, right? You need to make sure that your practice is something that a buyer would feel is worth the value and is worth the risk of, of taking on as business ownership.

[00:22:23] And, and whether that’s, In updated office, whether that’s clean financials that you can present, clean data, you can present, the, the, optimism that you’re, you’re showing, you know, when talking about the practice, all of that factors into it and, it, I think it makes the, the, the buyer more willing to take on that risk, business ownership to feel a lot more comfortable with the uncertainty of business ownership.

[00:22:46] And like the seller, you made such a good point.

[00:22:50] The seller needs, or I’m sorry, the, The buyer, the buyer needs to respect, what the seller is, is selling to you and all of the years and hard work of getting that business up and running. You know, all of the, all of the work that goes into building a business, there needs to be some respect for that as well, and I think as well as the, like, respect for what the seller is going through and transitioning out of a business, it’s, it’s a difficult process from everything I’ve ever seen and heard about selling a business, is you’re, you’re not just selling an asset, you’re sort of losing an identity, and, and it can be difficult for the, for the seller to go through that. So, definitely needs to be respect on both sides for, for that process.

[00:23:34] Michael: other thing is, you, you, you’ve said it now a couple of times, this, clean financials. I can’t emphasize enough, what a weak link that is in optometry and I, I am holding the accountants, accountable for that, but, you know, if people worked as hard at their optometry practice, as they did at avoiding taxes, We would have, we would have multimillion dollar practices all over the country.

[00:24:05] The, the issue of the avoidance of tax. So I’m going to spend $30 to avoid $15 in taxes.

[00:24:15] This is a commonly held belief. And when I say that out loud, people go, yeah, and, and I’m like, okay, you know that that makes no sense, right? You’ve spent more than you’ve saved. You, and people like, I, I’m not going to pay taxes.

[00:24:31] And, and I’ll, I’m always the first one to say, look, I want to tell you that I love paying taxes and I love paying taxes because it means that I made a lot of money.

[00:24:40] That’s what you want to be celebrating, not the avoidance of tax. So I get a lot of practices who show a loss and, and like any business, they run their, some of their personal things through the business.

[00:24:53] That’s fine. And we add that back. But, when you take that too far, You really have a loss. Doctors who don’t pay themselves a salary. Huge, huge mistake. And they don’t realize that they’re part of one of the most important clubs in the country. It’s the Social Security Club. And they haven’t paid Social Security tax since they came out of school.

[00:25:19] And so they don’t have a social security check coming when they’re 65. I mean, very, very serious, like, wow, nobody tell you that? Or, they believe that they have made a lot of money last year. And I’ll say to them, no, you know, you paid yourselves dividends, a salary essentially, that, is coming out of your checking account, but unfortunately it’s not showing up on your profit and loss statement.

[00:25:47] And so you believe that you made. $200,000 last year and you didn’t. And they’ll say, no, Mike, you don’t know what you’re talking about. I did. And I said, okay, we’ll do a quick test. I have your bank statement in front of you. If you made $200,000 last year, come the end of December, then you would expect that you’d have about $200,000 in your banking account right now.

[00:26:09] And you don’t. You have $20,000. So where is the $180,000? Where did it go? Did you spend it all? And they’re like, I said, no. The fact is you paid yourself. You see, that’s where it went. And so you didn’t make 200, 000. You made, you know, $20,000. And, again, I’m, I’m sorry to say that I’m the bearer of Really bad news in many cases because they’re just not connected with how do you read a financial statement and what does it mean?

[00:26:41] And again, I hold the accountants accountable for not educating their clients appropriately about that. So that, those are some of the things financially.

[00:26:53] Evon: Those practices taxed as S Corps, you have a legal requirement to pay yourself a reasonable wage. Now, reasonable is a gray area, there’s no direct, there’s no direct order on what is quote unquote reasonable, but there’s a list of criteria we can easily look at. Ultimately, what would you pay someone else to do your job?

[00:27:10] And, there are tax reasons to keep that wage low, yes. However, Michael, you brought up such a good point. I’ve also seen those practice owners where you have years and years of overly low salaries, artificially low salaries. You do get something for paying those social security taxes, and that is credit towards an annuity at your retirement.

[00:27:34] And sure, we can talk about optimizing that salary to get the most outta that calculation, but let’s at least get to the point where we’re, we’re paying yourself enough to talk to that, to that point. Too many practice owners, I think underpay themselves and, and. Don’t even do enough on the saving and investing side to make up for it.

[00:27:54] So, and another point you mentioned is it can skew the profitability numbers. It can make your profit look larger than it is or larger than it should, because ultimately if you weren’t there, someone is going to need to be providing the optometric services. You’re going to need to pay someone a salary in order to provide those services.

[00:28:12] So that’s a real expense to your business that it might be keeping artificially low, but it’s, it really does impact the profitability of the business. And, I think that’s such a good point.

[00:28:24] And let’s talk about the, the structures then. How are some, you know, how have you seen that the structure is handled ?

[00:28:30] Michael: So one of, one of the things that I’m spending a lot of time on right now is this, concept of buy-in and buyout. So, very, very challenging to recruit a young OD today. And to be honest with you, a lot of the owners don’t wanna pay what the young OD wants. So change, change the conversation for a minute.

[00:28:52] I would like you to come work with me with the sole intention that we both share. of you take taking this practice away from me at an appropriate time. That’s a totally different conversation than you’re going to come work for me, I’m going to pay you as little as possible, that benefit is going to inert me, the owner, and then you have nothing at the end of this story, right?

[00:29:15] That’s no good, especially when you’re in a profession that allows for ownership. So I’m encouraging a lot of current owners Go out and recruit that associate, but don’t look at it as, I’m going out to recruit an associate, I’m going out to recruit the next owner of this practice, and that’s the conversation we want to be having.

[00:29:36] As a matter of fact, as part of you starting working with me as an associate, we’re going to talk about you buying in. That could be at 5%, 10%, 15%, something small, but it means right off the bat, you and I are partners. I’m not the boss. We’re partners. We share in this, and we’re going to lay out a plan by which you will increasingly buy more and more and more of the practice until I’m the minority shareholder, and you’re the majority, and then we’re going to work out the rest of it, and I’m doing a lot of that very, very successfully, and doctors are finding, owners are finding that they’re able to recruit a whole lot easier.

[00:30:19] When that’s the conversation, as opposed to just come work for me, make me money. And then, you know, if you want to leave, you can leave. So we’re doing a lot of that. Now when you’re doing this, most practice sales are what they call asset sales. You’re selling the assets of the business. In this particular case, you’re not doing an asset sale.

[00:30:39] You’re doing a stock purchase agreement. The doctor owner owns a hundred shares of his practice and you’re going to buy some portion of those ratably over time until such time as you’re ready to buy them out. So that, that’s a little bit different. The other thing that I’ve been doing a lot of because of the situation with the banks is helping owners understand owner financing.

[00:31:04] Using Owner Financing

[00:31:04] Michael: We’re doing a lot of owner financing right now. The secret to owner financing is that the, buyer, the young OD comes to the table with some cash. So I need all those young ODs who are out there listening to this. I need you to come to the table with something to put in. Don’t just come and say, Oh, the owner’s gonna, finance a hundred percent of this.

[00:31:29] No, there’s, you have no skin in the game at that point. So, come to the table with something, that, that you can put down that, that could be borrowing from family and friends, no different than, as you alluded to before, buying your first house. There aren’t too many people who are sitting on their down payment, they’ve got to pull it together, right?

[00:31:48] And so, I highly recommend that as well.

[00:31:52] Evon: So let’s, let’s talk about the buy in, buy out, over, over a period of time. And I would imagine there are many practice owners that simply are uncomfortable with that. Meaning they want to maintain control of the practice. It’s, it’s their business and Maybe rightfully so, like it is their business. They are growing it.

[00:32:11] They’ve put the work to make it grow. They want to enjoy the profits. They want to have control over decisions. Who is this a, a good fit for? Who have you seen this to be a good fit for? Because adding an associate to practice. Does de risk the practice in a lot of ways. And like you mentioned, like a big recruiting tool is not just dangling a 401k or health insurance in front of them, but it’s dangling equity, like partnership, ownership in the business.

[00:32:38] So who is this a good fit for that you’ve seen as you put these together and over what timeline has this seemed to work out?

[00:32:48] Michael: Yeah. So initially I would say this is a good fit for no one because of what you just described, which is, wait, I built, this is my practice. I’m in control. I dictate what’s going on, right? I always say that the optometrists were the tennis players in high school, not the football players. They don’t relish working with somebody else and having a partner, that’s, that’s a learned behavior.

[00:33:13] You’ve got to, no different than being married, you’ve got to, you’ve got to figure out how I’m going to give a little bit to get a little bit, right? So, I spend a lot of my initial conversations with doctors, helping them to understand what you just articulated, which is we’re going to de risk your practice.

[00:33:31] It’s no longer balanced on one individual. I just went over the financials of a doctor I’m working with right now, hired, his buy in associate. In December, in November, excuse me, he just sent me his financials. He’s up 23 percent over the January and February period of last year.

[00:33:53] Evon: Oh,

[00:33:54] Michael: 23%. That’s extra, that’s, that’s just extraordinary.

[00:33:57] Right? So guess what? You’re still the owner of that growth. You’ve only sold a part and yet you’ve increased significantly your output. So over the next two or three or four years, whatever we work out, You are going to benefit from this, you know, individual coming into your practice and growing it.

[00:34:21] They’re going to benefit also when you leave, because they’ve helped to build a bigger practice. So, you’re a winner, they’re a winner, but we really do have to have a conversation about, you know, what are the downsides of this? What are, what are the things that I’m going to get caught in a trap? In the old days, not too long ago, I can’t tell you the number of Young doctors who were recruited to work in a practice promised on some handshake.

[00:34:48] Oh. Yeah. You know, maybe a couple of years from now. We’ll, you’ll, you’ll buy into the practice and it never materializes. Yes. All too common. And totally disrespectful as far as I’m concerned. And, and that has, we have to heal a lot of people who’ve been through that. And we have to fix a lot of people who made offers like that.

[00:35:10] So, when I work with them, this is all. You know, done through an attorney. It’s all laid out. It’s not in two years, we might talk about it. No, no, no. Right now, we’re going to choose dates by which the associate will buy in further and further and further into the practice. And there are, you know, outcomes associated with that.

[00:35:33] But, all this is laid out with no questions asked. It’s very clear. Now, when you lay out that path, It’s true, the owner is giving up and the buyer is taking risk at receiving. But when you talk about that out loud and you help people understand that story, it really does start to feel good.

[00:35:54] Like, from a buyer, I think I can do that.

[00:35:58] And from a seller, hey, I like that runway. You know, it’s not a month from now and I’m out. I’m going to be working here, helping this young guy grow the practice, work with him. Yeah, I’m going to cut back a day or two, that feels good too, right? And you’re really starting to massage. What’s, what’s that story look like where you both go, wow, I, I really like that story.

[00:36:24] Evon: Is there a, a certain, point at an owner’s career where this starts to make sense, like 10 years away from transition or something like that? Because I, I’m thinking of younger, younger optometrists that I know, own a practice, have a couple associates. They’re still a couple decades away from even considering, you know, stepping out of the practice.

[00:36:46] So is there a certain, a certain point at an OD owner’s career where that type of runway transition starts to make sense.

[00:36:55] Michael: Yeah. I’ll say there’s actually two inflection points. One is when a doctor is in their mid forties, let’s say, I’m making a lot of assumptions that they’ve been in practice for 20 years and you know, things like that, but in their mid forties, they need to be thinking about, Hey, someday I’m going to want to sell this practice.

[00:37:13] Are my financials in order? Is my story a story? Because I’m going to tell you 90 percent of the time. No, it’s not. And now you’re in your mid 40s. You’ve got plenty of time. I’m working with a doctor in his mid 40s right now. Disaster financials, all kinds of crazy stuff. I couldn’t make heads or tails of it. January 1st, we ended his financials with it, and we started a new accountant, and he’s got beautiful new financials that will really display the value of his practice. And he’s got plenty of time now. He’s not selling any time in the near future. So mid 40s, is your story on track to sell? Which at the next inflection point, which is in your mid fifties, you want to be, if you say I want to work till I’m 65, you want to be thinking or starting the sale process at 55, 56, 57.

[00:38:16] It feels early, but you’re not going anywhere. It’s again, you’re not selling and leaving. And I wouldn’t recommend that to anybody. I think you leave a lot on the table when you do that. So you want to sell, stay, preserve your asset, make sure it’s working. And, you open up your options when you’ve got time, when you don’t have your back against the wall.

[00:38:39] I’m, I work, I meet a lot of doctors. Who waited way too long. I’m 68 years old and, I’m looking to sell. And, and often I have to say, I don’t know if I can help you. You waited too long. You’ve, your practice has been in decline. I noticed that you’re only working three days a week now. Oh yeah. You know, I, I’ve been cutting back about a day a year for the last couple of years.

[00:39:04] Like, okay, but now you’re selling an asset that’s significantly smaller, but your expectations haven’t moved a bit. You still think you have that $900,000 practice and you don’t. And so now we’ve got this dissonance and this problem. And often it means that we’re going to have a hard time selling if we’re going to sell it all.

[00:39:26] So mid forties. Make sure your story’s in order. Are you hitting all of the benchmarks that you want? Do you understand what benchmarks you need in order to get the price that you need? You should just know that, right? And that way if you’re not on track, you can fix it. Mid 50s, you want to start going out and finding that buyer.

[00:39:47] If it’s a PE firm, great. You know, you can always say no to an offer. But it’s very difficult to generate. So, go ahead, go down that path, pursue a PE sale. If you don’t like it, say, you know what, I’m not interested right now. But if you do, wow, what a great opportunity to take it.

[00:40:04] Evon: Yeah.

[00:40:05] If you aren’t heading the PE direction, then would you simply start with your own associates and, and have those conversations with them to see if they would be interested in sort of this runway approach to the buy in, buy out?

[00:40:18] Michael: Absolutely. I’ve got two people right now, who are young associates who contacted me and they want to buy the practice that they’re in and they don’t know, you know, how do you, how do you put that together? What does that look like? How much money do I have to come up with? What’s the practice worth?

[00:40:34] You know, all those kinds of things. But yes, that, that’s why, you know, there’s so many doctors who are working solo. If you are, now’s the time to really say, wait, I should really be looking at bringing on an associate to pick up a day or two, three days, full time, whatever you can muster, because you’re not bringing on an associate.

[00:40:55] You’re bringing on a future buyer. That’s really what you’re doing. You’re preserving your retirement plan.

[00:41:01] Evon: Right, you’re creating a market for your business, essentially, and taking that, that pressure to maintain the value of your business off of your shoulders and, and spreading it onto a team. Let’s talk about owner financing. And I can see from the owner’s perspective, they might feel like they are taking on additional financial risk by being the lender as well as the seller in this situation.

[00:41:26] They might feel more comfortable having the buyer go through a third party bank and just getting the funds, as the, the, sale is closed. Who is a good fit for owner financing? How should a seller think about whether they’re a good fit for that or whether it makes sense in a particular sale?

[00:41:45] Michael: It, it really comes down to where they are, financially from a personal perspective. You know, my question for them is, do you need the money for something? You know, some doctors are looking to move to somewhere else for their retirement, things like that. And therefore they need that money to go purchase this other home or something like that.

[00:42:07] Most though, When you take some of the pressure off and you sort of dispel a lot of myths, most are saying, yeah, I can do that. I don’t know if I want to do the whole thing, but I can do a portion of it. Great. So, you know what? It turns out the bank will approve a loan to your associate for a portion of the business.

[00:42:28] Very manageable amount of money, that they can buy in. Now you’ve got somebody who’s literally vested in your business and wants to see it through. You can help them through maybe the next step or the step after that, or both next steps, depending on where you are financially. And, again, it’s typically a conversation.

[00:42:50] And then, I’m able to shape that to fit the needs of this individual. I had one doc, who said, if the associate comes on board, I’ll give them my practice for a dollar after three years. And I said, okay, we’re going to have to really hone our legal language around that. But, I understand what you’re trying to do.

[00:43:16] He says, look, I just need someone to help me to arrive at that point. And then I’m gone. If you could find someone who will help me achieve what I want to achieve, I’ll give them what they want, which is the practice. And, and he ended up doing that and, selling his business at a normal, selling his building at a normal price.

[00:43:39] So it ended up being, again, a real happy story for both players at the end of it. It’s so, you know, the, the, the sale is so personal. And when you’ve got two ODs who come to the table open with what can we do, if that’s your attitude, really the answer is we can get this done. You know, we’re, we’re going to be very successful.

[00:44:03] And we’re going to make sure that we have two winners at the table. Also, again, so many people read the, you know, most recent negotiating book about how you get away from the table being the winner. And I always say, no, there’s no such thing. There’s no losers here. Because the loser gets to take his ball and go home before he ever loses, you know?

[00:44:24] So really, you, you want to be thinking about, hey, what does that other guy need? Because maybe if I scratch that itch, he’ll, he’ll give me what I need. And then you’ve got yourself a great, a great conversation to have now.

[00:44:39] Evon: It definitely is a different mindset when you’re going into a negotiation like this where you’re trying to make it a fair deal for both, both buyer and seller, rather than if you’re, it seems like if you’re constantly trying to get the win out of the, out of the deal, you’re, it’s antagonistic, you’re, you’re constantly trying to figure out ways to, to make it better for you and worse for the other party.

[00:45:02] And it’s, it seems like a much different, it seems like it’s something, a mindset that can make a transaction go less smoothly than it should otherwise.

[00:45:10] Michael: Yes. And again, in, in most of these transactions after the sale is over, it’s not really over, but after it’s over, you’ve got to work with this individual.

[00:45:21] Evon: Right.

[00:45:21] Michael: That’s not going to work. So, you know, people always say to me, oh, so you’re going to represent me. And I said, oh, no, no, no. You’re not my client.

[00:45:30] My client is the deal. And they say, well, what do you mean by that? I said, the deal is the thing that sits in the middle of the table. And in order for me to succeed, and therefore for you to succeed, I need two people saying to me, Hey Mike, great job, two people have to say that. Because again, we’re in a circumstance that if one says this is terrible.

[00:45:53] It’ll just never happen. There is nobody who walks out as the winner and somebody else is the loser. You’re either both losers because the deal has fallen through or you’re both winners because you both got something and you probably gave up something too in this process. And, we’ve had too many success stories to say.

[00:46:14] Gee, that’s, I don’t know if that’s really possible. To the, to the contrary, you have to work at really, not understanding what’s going on, not to start to understand the game and how to play this well, how to be a good buyer or a good seller. That’s what we’re looking for people to do. And, and that takes a few months to do that.

[00:46:37] Evon: Yeah. And from the, from the owner’s financing part, is there any ways that owners, selling doctors should look at protecting themselves financially from keeping the liability side?

[00:46:49] Michael: Yeah. So in many cases, not all, but in many cases, the, the associate doesn’t have the appropriate collateral to back up the promissory note, right? So what is the collateral? It’s the practice. So essentially what you’re doing is you’re saying, Hey, Evon, I’m willing to give you this promissory note for $300,000 and if you default on that, I get the practice back,

[00:47:16] Right?

[00:47:16] Now that’s, that is, it’s egregious. It’s pretty strong because, you did pay something for that practice and you just lost that. So it, it creates, I’m taking risk by giving you a note. You’re taking risk. Because you have a lot to lose if you don’t pay that note. And so it does start to strike this balance, between both the buyer and the seller.

[00:47:41] Look, we’re both at risk here. The buyer, wants to be successful and pay that doctor back, and the owner wants that buyer to be successful and pay him back. So we, it does create this situation where we really are still on the same page. And so far so good. You know, we, I haven’t had anybody default, or anything like that.

[00:48:03] Again, it’s usually not so much money that it, it can’t be surmounted. What I do, when we’re trying to figure out, is this a good idea? We run cash flow statements. That’s just like the bank does. I’m not really interested in profit. I’m interested in cash flow. At the end of each month, have you produced enough cash for you to write a check to that lender, whether it’s the owner or the bank?

[00:48:29] And if you don’t have that in room, then this is not It’s either not the right price or not the right purchase to make. And we spend a lot of time making sure that there’s lots of room to be successful. You don’t, you don’t buy up to here. That’s too risky, you know, and there’s no reason for that today, really.

[00:48:49] Optometry practices can produce, a well run practice can produce enough profit that you should be able to manage any size loan and still pay yourself a nice salary in the meantime and, you know, all that.

[00:49:02] Evon: And to your earlier points about the personal finances playing a role and, and whether or not that’s a viable option, I just can’t help but think like the more from a financial planning perspective. The better you prepare yourself financially over your career leading up to that point, the more you leave yourself options when you’re trying to exit your practice.

[00:49:22] The more you take your cash flow, like you mentioned, the more you take your cash flow from the business and yes, reinvest it back into the practice, but also in reinvesting it in other assets outside of the practice, The more you prepare yourself for financial independence along the way, the more optionality you have in how you want to exit your business, who you want to sell it to, how you’d want to structure that, whether you can or want to provide, seller financing, owner financing, the better you off on your personal finances along the way, the much better position you are to give yourself more options at that point when you’re ready to make that transition.

[00:49:59] Michael: You know, I’m, I’m happy to say that I’m meeting more and more people who are coming to the table, who are working with someone like you, and the conversation goes very differently. They’ll say, Hey Mike, I need a million dollars in price. Will you take a look at my financials and tell me if I can get it?

[00:50:19] Now, why are they saying that? Because they’ve done some other math, right? They’ve done the math with someone like you saying, this is what you want to do post-retirement, this is what you need. How great is that? And then often I’ll say, you know what, you’re not going to make a million dollars. And then their question is, what do I need to do to get there?

[00:50:43] Perfect. Perfect. This is exactly, now, it’s perfect when there’s time to do that. When you’ve engaged early enough in the process, again, you’re in your mid forties and you’ve got a dream ahead of you, do you know how to arrive there? Are they working with a travel guide like you that says, this is what you need?

[00:51:03] This is how we’re going to put our assets together. So you arrive where you want to arrive.

[00:51:07] Evon: Yeah.

[00:51:08] Michael: So people are being smarter.

[00:51:10] Evon: That’s a, that’s a a great point. And any other creative structures you’ve been, you’ve been working on or that you’ve seen from OD to OD?

[00:51:18] Michael: Yeah. Again, I, I, I’m seeing a significant rise in real estate investment. So they own the building that they’re in. Very, very, very smart. Because you know, they, they bought it 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Today, it’s a totally different price. Now mistakes that are made around that, doctors who own the building and don’t charge themselves rent.

[00:51:41] Again, a, poorly stated profit and loss statement because that’s a big expense and you’ve chosen to ignore it, right? So that kind of thing. So missing salaries, missing rents. Again, the people that I’m working with who are highly successful, who are, by the way, not ready for sales. I work with a lot of, doctors in their forties, who are building their network, right, they’ve got an idea, we’ve articulated what you need to do to get there, and so I’m helping them build this network. These are guys that are coming in. They’re purchasing practices. They’re recruiting young doctors. They’re giving them a small piece of ownership to do it. So they’re recruiting easily. And, I mean, I’m, I’m working with these guys now that are up to 8, 10, 12 million dollar practices.

[00:52:29] Evon: Hmm.

[00:52:30] Michael: They’ve got themselves their, their retirement plan and they’re, you know, 47 years old. It’s, it’s really, it’s a pleasure, to work with someone who’s deliberate. Like that. Now that’s not to dismiss or discount, those people who are said, I went into optometry because I love the lifestyle practice.

[00:52:53] I love the lifestyle that owning an optometry practice can provide me. What does that mean? It means that, there are people who want to work three days a week. Their family demands that, their, their own interests demand it. And in optometry, you can now, I will tell you that it becomes an even greater lifestyle if you can bring on an associate who’s going to help you with that, right?

[00:53:18] And so I’m seeing, I’m seeing more and more doctors now who are working one day a week to keep their fingers in the pot, but. They have two associates who work there full time and they’re making a very handsome wage, you know, and they’re not working but one day a week. So lots of opportunities to look at the optometry practice as a very, very flexible asset.

[00:53:44] And then look at yourself and say, what am I trying to get out of this? And I’m going to tell you, you probably can, you just need to figure out what your structure is going to be.

[00:53:54] Evon: Yeah, that’s, you and I were, we’re talking about this before recording and that it seems like among the financial benefits of owning the business, of owning the practice, there, there’s also freedom and freedom to build not only the patient experience and the scope of care you want to provide, but freedom to, to build the owner experience that you want and whether it’s a sort of lifestyle practice that’s really built around, a balance between work and out of the work lifestyle that you want to have, whether it’s building a multi location business, that freedom comes with ownership, right?

[00:54:29] It’s, it’s being able to look at what do you want out of your career? What do you want out of life? And let’s build your business to, to match that. I think that’s such a great opportunity that you’re seeing and that, I’m seeing as well in, in optometry that you may not find in even just other healthcare professions.

[00:54:46] You may not be able to find that, that opportunity for balance there and the freedom that you have.

[00:54:51] What Makes a Better Prepared Seller

[00:54:51] Evon: And, on the, on the seller side, what would you say makes a, a better prepared seller as they’re about to go through that process?

[00:55:02] Michael: So mistake number one, is a misunderstanding of practice value. And usually this comes from, there was a time where I was making X and therefore my practice is worth Y. And then I’m saying, yes, but that’s not what your practice is today. And. The logic is, yes, but it could be, because it once was.

[00:55:27] Or, I’m working with a gentleman right now who is very disappointed in the offer, and he said, you know, all they have to do is come here and look and they’ll see how much potential there is. I said, I’m sure that it’s there. I’m sure it’s there in tons, but nobody buys potential.

[00:55:47] You know, nobody looks at a house and says, you know, I’m charging as much for my house because if you wanted to, you could build another bedroom onto it. And therefore you should pay for that bedroom because it could be there, right? You would laugh at that person and you’re doing the same thing. You’re saying, I want someone to pay for what I didn’t do, but they could do. And as, as logical as that feels to you, it just doesn’t exist. So, that that’s mistake number one.

[00:56:17] Number two is again, be open to some form of owner financing. Come to the table with the attitude that I am probably going to be asked to finance some portion of this and I’m okay with that. I, I, I’m, I’m good with that.

[00:56:36] Number three, and this gets back to something I said before, you know, the first inflection point in your forties, the second one in your fifties, do not get to your sixties and start taking time off.

[00:56:47] And now your practice is a shadow of what it once was. And now you’re turning around and selling it. It’s like allowing your house to degrade and there’s a hole in the roof and you haven’t painted it in, in, you know, 35 years. And it just looks like hell. And you say, yeah, but all it needs is a roof, new roof and a paint job.

[00:57:06] And, and that’s why it’s worth, you know, multi million dollars. And you say, yes, but you needed to keep that house up to that level and then you can sell it at that level. So. Please keep, you want to sell your practice at its peak. If you know that, you know, I think in the next year I’m going to start cutting back a little bit, now’s the time to sell and cut back under somebody else’s ownership.

[00:57:33] Really, really important. I see that so often. It’s a terrible

[00:57:38] Evon: Can they offset that by hiring an associate to continue to see patients while they’re out of the clinic? Like how, is there a way to balance out the desire to spend more time outside of the practice and still maintain ownership? Or do you really just, when you, okay, okay. So you can, you can do other things like that.

[00:58:00] Michael: 100%. So often the case is I’m going to recruit an associate and they’re going to want to work here full time. No practice has full time doctor work sitting around. You would lose those patients, right? So, I probably have enough for two days a week, and then maybe I’ll give up two days a week and we’ll fudge that fifth day, right?

[00:58:25] So now I’ve got a full time work for this new associate. And I’m going to cut back two days. Now, if that doesn’t feel good or some shade of gray of that, then we need to rethink that, that strategy. But really you can, cut back a little, take more me time, still own your practice, recruit that future buyer.

[00:58:49] That is the name of the game. And, so few people are doing it. They’re finding it very, very difficult to recruit, and again, it’s, it’s because of the way that they’re recruiting. That’s the problem.

[00:59:02] What Makes a Better Prepared Buyer

[00:59:02] Evon: How about from the buyer buyer’s perspective? What, what would you recommend to, to a buyer to make sure that they are more prepared as they are getting ready to, to buy a practice or buy into a practice?

[00:59:14] Michael: So again, the flip side of that is, coming to the table and recognizing the intangibles. I can’t tell you the number of young ODs that say, Oh, I looked at the equipment list, and they don’t have a topographer, and they don’t have this, and they don’t have that, and therefore the practice isn’t worth it anything. You say, no, that’s equipment. That’s not the practice. The practice is invisible. It’s the, you know, thousands and thousands of patients who have been coming here and now their children and grandchildren come here. What’s the price on that? You know, you’re going to walk in and you’re, all of that is going to inert to you.

[00:59:52] So be aware that there’s more than what you’re looking at in a practice that has value. As a matter of fact, more so the intangibles than the tangibles. As I said before, come to the table with some skin in the game. You’re going to put some money down and, that’s going to put your mind in a different place.

[01:00:16] It’s going to put the seller’s mind in a different place. It’s going to go a whole lot smoother at that point. And, third thing is, Understand what is fair. I’m not suggesting that you should overpay for a practice or provide a price that you don’t think the value is there, but, I’m always, I’m very disappointed when I, I get an offer from a young OD and it’s, you know, less than six figures and the practice is a half million dollar practice and you’re saying, so you’d, you’d sell your practice at 20 cents on the dollar.

[01:00:56] Is that, that, well, no, but you know, this practice isn’t worth that. I said, I know, but it’s not worth it because you can’t afford it. Not because it’s not worth it. And so educate yourself a little bit on what are good practice values? Learn I had one recently, though, where, the associate who did a really good job of going out and educating herself, the owner actually asked for less than what she was expecting to pay.

[01:01:26] And, and so there you had the value of educating yourself on what this practice could be worth and a big win. The owner got 100 percent of what he wanted. And she got to pay less than what she expected. How great is that? That, you know, that’s tremendous. Yes. That’s a win win right there.

[01:01:46] Evon: That’s, you know, ultimately the price is what two, a willing buyer and a willing seller is willing to agree on, and it should be grounded or anchored in some. Valuation or some knowledge of what a practice should go for, of that size and, and financial characteristics and, and so forth, but, you know, ultimately it’s what a willing buyer and a willing seller is willing to agree on and, I, I might even say like a, a buyer might over pay slightly for a practice.

[01:02:15] But when you think about the long term financial rewards of owning the business and the years in years, potentially a few decades of profit and cashflow that are going to be coming from that business, let alone what you can do to improve it. There can be a sense of what’s the saying, stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.

[01:02:34] Like they’re. There can be a sense of your, your short sightedness when you can look at the longer term returns by, by overpaying maybe slightly more than you’re, you’re willing to, or than you originally thought. Again, going back to that house analogy is. Yeah, you might overpay a little bit for the home, but you’re going to spend, you know, the next 10 years enjoying it and be really happy that you did.

[01:02:58] So, there’s a bit of that as well.

[01:03:01] Conclusion

[01:03:01] Evon: And I, I really appreciate you coming on. I mean, this has been great. I think it’s been, it’s been helpful for the listeners to think about putting together these buys and sells in a different way than they might have heard originally, and they might be stuck at a roadblock with getting financing, but there are other ways to this. And I think it’s going to be helpful for the listener to hear that. Any last words for the listener, whether they are buyers or sellers of their practices, any last words you want to leave with the listeners as we wrap up here?

[01:03:33] Michael: I mean, nothing but positive. There is just the world of opportunity out there and there’s an opportunity for you. And I really want to encourage those people who say, well, I never really. Saw myself as an owner. There’s no, there’s nothing like being an owner. And I say that both from a financial perspective as well as a career fulfillment perspective.

[01:04:01] And if you’ve been listening to this podcast and you now say, well, wait a minute, ownership could mean a lot of things. It doesn’t mean working six days a week, you know, eight hours a day killing yourself. No, no, no. Think of ownership as just that. I own that practice, but what your role is and the demand on you, you’re going to write that script.

[01:04:28] And in most cases, regardless of what you write, you’re going to be successful at that level. So that’s the beauty of optometry right now is you’ve got, if you’re a young OD looking to own their first practice and then expand, wow, the, the world is your oyster. There’s just so much opportunity.

[01:04:51] And remember, despite all the big companies in optometry out there, optometry is very, very local. They could be sitting all around you in town. And it doesn’t matter because you’re serving your portion of the community and you’re doing very well doing that. So you shouldn’t look and say, Oh, that’s a, you know, Eye Care For One or something there.

[01:05:16] And therefore I shouldn’t open up. You’re going to do just fine.

[01:05:21] Evon: Well, I love that. I appreciate you saying that. And where can people find and follow and learn more about what you’re doing?

[01:05:28] Michael: Sure. So I’ve got a library of eBooks that a lot of people have complimented on, that have helped them to understand, you want to go to the growth cooperative, which is the growth co op. com and, there’s a place for you just to reach out to me and say, Hey Mike, can you send me stuff? And we’ll figure out what that stuff needs to be.

[01:05:50] And we’ll get you educated. No, no pressure. I’m a big believer in starting well in advance of when you need to actually start doing this. So, take the time to educate yourself, but you can come to my website. You can contact me directly Michael at growthcoop. com and, I’m happy to just be an educator for you for a while.

[01:06:11] Evon: That is great. We’ll put all of the links to all that in the show notes, which the listener you can find by scrolling up on whatever app you’re using and you should find it there. In the meantime, for the listeners really appreciate your time and attention and listening today. We will catch you on the next episodes.

[01:06:27] In the meantime, take care. ​